Ep 72 - Eww Gross! Not on My Face: Creepy Makeup Ingredients with Kat DeJesus

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0:01:39.3 Speaker 3: You are listening to ASCP Esty Talk, where we share insider tips, industry resources, and education for estheticians at every stage of the journey. Let's talk, 'cause ASCP knows it's all about you. 

 

0:01:54.6 Ella Cressman: Hello and welcome to ASCP Esty Talk, the ingredient decked out series. Here we explore the fascinating world of ingredients and how they work with and within the skin. I'm your host, Ella Cressman, licensed esthetician, certified organic formulator, owner of the HHP collective, and not to mention a total and complete ingredient junky, and you already know that. Today we're celebrating the return of two things. The "Ew Gross Not on My Face" sub-series and the return of an amazing guest, Kat DeJesus. Welcome, Kat. 

 

0:02:26.8 Kat DeJesus: I am so excited to be back. 

 

0:02:29.5 EC: And we're so excited to have you back. Kat, of course, is a long time, very accomplished makeup artist, a licensed esthetician, and an instructor at one of the topnotch schools in Colorado. And today we're gonna talk about some really gross stuff. 

 

0:02:45.1 KD: I'm here for it. 

 

0:02:46.1 EC: Let's talk about gross ingredients in makeup. 

 

0:02:50.9 KD: Ugh, here we go. 

 

0:02:51.9 EC: Let's talk about it. So Kat, what is one of your least favorite ingredients in makeup?  

 

0:02:58.0 KD: Oh, gosh. Where do we start? Let's start with fragrance. 

 

0:03:01.7 EC: Oh, phew. 

 

0:03:02.6 KD: Yeah, let's go there. I don't need my face smelling like an old lady perfume. I don't need the smell of my face to walk in before I do. 

 

0:03:15.6 EC: Okay. 

 

0:03:16.0 KD: You know, the times and I feel... Let me back that up. Not even I feel, this is more, in general. No one needs excess fragrance in their makeup. We have other body products and things like that. Fragrance can create sensitivity, and where do we have the most reactions? Generally, on our face. So why? Why, Ella, why?  

 

0:03:41.2 EC: I hate to admit it, but I use a bronzer that smells like vacation. 

 

0:03:46.0 KD: So do I. 

 

[laughter] 

 

0:03:48.5 EC: And maybe it's like, "Oh, summer time. Look at me I'm bronze." Maybe it's some kind... It's gotta be psychological, right?  

 

0:03:55.1 KD: It is, and it drives me crazy, because I'm guilty, I know we're guilty. 

 

0:04:00.6 EC: Yeah. 

 

0:04:00.7 KD: I think... A little bit, right. We like the aesthetically pleasing aspect of it, but is it necessary? Absolutely not. Should we have it? Most likely not. 

 

0:04:10.9 S1: Most likely, yeah. 

 

0:04:11.2 S1: But  ____ are just not good for us all the time. 

 

0:04:15.2 EC: I think that point is, is it necessary? I think we're sensory people. And I think that, specifically, it's called your olfactory system is... When you take a big sniff of something, it is not the smell of something that you're experiencing, it's the connection to memory that you're experiencing. So your olfactory system connects to your limbic system and says, "Hey, remember this, this is good, or this is bad." I think of ex-boyfriend scents. [chuckle] Or that black ice tree in cars, or I have an association with this, good or bad. But what's interesting about "fragrance", I'll put fragrance in quotation mark, on an ingredient deck is what's in it. And finding out what's in it, as Kat mentioned, it creates sensitivity. Potentially, it's one of the leading causes of skin sensitivity is this fragrance, or other sensory sensitivity. How many people have said, "Oh, that smell gives me a headache", or, you know a lot of people are sensitive to scents. 

 

0:05:19.3 EC: And what's interesting is if you go to the FDA website... I actually went to the FDA website and it says... The long and short of it is fragrance doesn't have to be expanded upon what makes up fragrance because it's considered part of the fair trade and trade secrets act. And what that means is they don't have to divulge what's in it because it's part of their proprietary blend, and divulging what's in it makes them less competitive. So with that, they're able to put ingredients, lump ingredients, into the fragrance category. They could be totally benign, and it could be considered essential oils, even though those have a specifics... Essential oils have a potential for irritation but... Common ingredients as found in perfumes is acetone, ethanol, benzaldehyde, formaldehyde, methyl chloride, camphor, ethyl acetate and benzoyl alcohol. Phthalates and synthetic musks are almost so commonly used potentially hazardous ingredients. This is all there on the FDA website, and they're like, "Yeah, we're not doing much about it because we're protecting the business." And that's kinda freaky. 

 

0:06:35.5 KD: Now, just slap it on your face too. 

 

0:06:37.1 EC: Yeah. 

 

0:06:38.7 KD: Why not?  

 

0:06:39.0 EC: And still look so pretty. Smell great, look pretty. 

 

0:06:43.1 KD: And that's crazy because... I understand if you get into just the chemistry of things, right. Using something I.e., to mask the normal smell of ingredients is one thing to kinda create things... To make things odorless. And then there's another whole guideline where people just wanna make it smell like the beach. And I know, 'cause I have that bronzer and I love it. [chuckle] And I don't wanna let it go. But it's just, it's really not necessary. 

 

0:07:12.0 EC: Well, and then there's another makeup that you talked about in your last podcast that you said like, "Laden with rose, the smell of rose." 

 

0:07:18.8 KD: Oh, and I'm not the only one who complains. It's across the board in terms of just the product itself. People absolutely love it, I can't. And it just... It does give me a headache in terms of the smell of that foundation. [laughter] 

 

0:07:32.1 EC: And we asked you to say the name last time and you did. So if you're curious about what she's talking about, you're gonna have to re-listen to the Kat DeJesus Makeup. I think it's called "I Feel Pretty." So, oh, "Pretty Smart." Yep, it's called "Pretty Smart with Kat DeJesus". So check it out, it's a good one. Well, let's talk about other ingredients. So synthetic fragrance stinks. Right? Or fragrance, period. Unnecessary fragrance. 

 

0:07:58.7 KD: Yeah, get rid of it, not necessary, just useless. 

 

0:08:03.7 EC: Bye. Or be aware of it if you're experiencing sensitivity. Don't always blame... "My esthetician broke me out. Or this one broke me out. That one broke me out." Don't you hate... I hate hearing that. I'm like... 

 

0:08:15.5 KD: "Makeup broke me out." I'm like, "Did you wash your face afterwards?" But that's a whole different story. 

 

0:08:20.5 EC: A whole different story. [chuckle] But it's also good for practitioners to understand this too, because during your evaluation or during your consultation, are you asking about what kind of makeup are they wearing? That might be part of their seeing sensitivity or redness. Could be a culprit. So what other ingredients in makeup are you not really a fan of?  

 

0:08:40.9 KD: This is gonna sound pretty, I don't know, strange for an esthetician to say, right? Skin care and makeup. 

 

0:08:48.8 EC: Okay. 

 

0:08:49.2 KD: Almost entirely useless. I know, I know. Wait for it. Okay, I have a really good theory. Are you ready for this?  

 

0:08:58.2 EC: I'm gonna sit down for this [laughter] 'cause... Yes, I'm ready. Tell me. Help me understand. 

 

0:09:04.0 KD: Being an esthetician, as well as a professional makeup artist, doing makeup for special events, doing makeup for longevity, doing makeup for photo shoots and things like that. If I am doing makeup, let's say, for a wedding, they want that makeup to stay on for as long as possible. As soon as you start adding hydration, humectants, as soon as you start adding certain ingredients, peptides, in your foundation, that tends to kinda break down the longevity that we would want in our product. 

 

0:09:36.7 EC: Oh. 

 

0:09:38.2 KD: Think of the order that you're applying things in. And I know across the board, people are gonna have different opinions on this. But we always wanna do our skin care first, right? Skin care, skin care, skin care, SPF, then makeup. What is that skin care and makeup after your whole routine that you've done, gonna do? And lastly, 'cause I will die on this hill, SPF and makeup. Why?  

 

0:10:04.9 EC: 'Cause you already have it in your step, right?  

 

0:10:07.6 KD: You should. I hope so. I hope everyone is applying the right amount of SPF on top of it. How many people are actually caking on the amount of foundation they need to make the SPF effective  ____ gonna wear that much. Now, doing an SPF powder on top afterwards as a touch-up to your change, sure. SPF spray, cool. But you're not gonna touch up with your foundation later once you have your blush and your eye shadow and your setting spray and what have you. So it just doesn't make sense to me in the order of the products that we use, to have it. Makeup should be strictly makeup for whatever purpose it is. Whether it's to hide, to a special event look flawless, what have you. But there really shouldn't be skin care and makeup. You have skin care for skin care and makeup for makeup. It shouldn't be combined. 

 

0:11:01.2 EC: So you're doubling down. It's like wearing Spanx underneath your compression workout pants. 

 

0:11:07.3 KD: Right? Why?  

 

0:11:08.4 EC: Why? [chuckle] 

 

0:11:09.0 KD: We think about the effectiveness? It's really not doing what you think it's doing. 

 

0:11:16.4 EC: Hey, guys, stop. Let's take a quick break. 

 

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0:11:58.9 EC: Let's get back to the conversation. So, and what about those people who say... Okay, so for example, earlier this week, I had a new client. And we go to this whole thing, "What are your habits? What is your spa trick? What are your sun habits? How often do you wear sunscreen?" "Oh, everyday it's in my foundation." What brand of foundation? [laughter] You guys can't see but Kat is rolling her eyes and bobbing her head with like, "Shh, hff, blehh". This is what she's doing, "Pshh, Whatever." But what is the... [chuckle] What do you say to those clients who rely on that as one of their steps?  

 

0:12:39.6 KD: Okay, if they like it, I love it, it's fine. But SPF in certain formulations is also gonna create flashback for clients if they're taking pictures. One, especially if it's a physical sunscreen, right?  

 

0:12:53.2 EC: Right. 

 

0:12:53.7 KD: As in titanium dioxide, what have you. But it gives people a false sense of security because they forget to touch up. You're not gonna take that foundation or concealer with you and re-apply. It's already difficult to get our clients to re-apply on a regular basis as it is. So like I said, I'm cool with having a touch up powder, a spray, something like that, that you can have at your disposal to make sure that you're touching up regularly. But if you're gonna put it on top of your foundation anyways, it's pretty useless in your foundation. Or if you put it on beforehand, it's useless in your foundation. 

 

0:13:33.1 EC: True, words of the wise. So tell us what other ingredients make your ew-list?  

 

0:13:40.9 KD: Go there, lead. Right? People forget that [laughter] it's still in makeup, it is still in makeup. Not better quality makeup, but I don't know. Should we tell them about the FDA and all that fun stuff?  

 

0:13:56.9 EC: Oh my gosh, should we? Well, first of all, I know this, there's a documentary, and I've talked about it, I think we talked about the last time. It's a Netflix documentary series called Broken. And in that series, there was one on makeup, counterfeit makeup that was coming from overseas. And the things that they had in there were so gross. I just remember horse urine and other kinds of fecal material. And I don't remember if they said lead or no, I was too busy gagging. But what I looked up on lead, again, went to the FDA specifically and it's very interesting. So the first part, they talk about lead in makeup and basically they're saying, "We know that it's out there and we know that it's being shipped in, and we try to keep a good handle on that. But we wanna warn you that counterfeit is out there and from other countries, and so be advised. And here are some of them to be alerted about." One is Kohl, K-O-H-L. Not the store, the eyeliner. [laughter] Kajal, al... This one's funny 'cause it's al-Kahal, A-L and the next word K-A-H-A-L that sound like "alcohol" to me. Surma, Tiro, Tozali, or Kwalli. And you can see all the spellings and laugh at my pronunciation yourself by visiting the FDA website. 

 

0:15:28.8 EC: But these traditional eye... This is what exactly verbatim one that says, "These traditional eyeliners popular in many parts of the world are a serious health concern because they commonly contain large amounts of lead, as well as other heavy metals. Products containing coal and similar ingredients have been linked to lead poisoning, especially among children and are not allowed to be sold in the US. Nevertheless, these products sometimes make their way into specialty markets in this country. FDA has an import alert advising import inspectors to be on the lookout." So there you go, they're solving the problem. [laughter] Oh, I'm curious how many inspectors they have. "To be on the lookout for shipments of these products and we've posted information to alert consumers of the dangers of using them." Is that enough? Then they go on to talk about some other makeup items, lipstick, other cosmetic lip products and externally applied cosmetics. So by definition, externally applied cosmetics is what they're considering blush, eyeshadow, let's see what else they put on here. 

 

0:16:40.8 KD: I'm sure like foundation, powder, things like that... Topically. 

 

0:16:44.8 EC: Yeah. In the externally applied section, so what they say is, in the lip category, "That we've found levels of lead in these products were from below the detection limit at about seven parts per million." And then they published the development for analyzing the lipstick. And then they also... Because they're basically saying, "You know, lead's a natural occurring mineral. Naturally, it's gonna get in somewhere." So that this is seven parts per million. Then they say, "FDA has also analyzed hundreds of externally applied cosmetics. This is cosmetics applied to the skin such as eyeshadows, blushes, shampoos and body lotions for lead and other impurities. The levels of lead we found were from below the detection limit up to 14 parts per million." Then, this is the part that got me. It says, "Our data shows that over 99% of the cosmetic lip products and externally applied cosmetic on the US market contain lead at or below 10 part per million which is below the limit." And so they're fine with it. So it was just like, oh, that it has it in there. I don't know what to think about it. I'm gonna have to dig a little deeper because that's scary. 

 

0:18:00.3 KD: So let's think of it this way. And I'm not trying to fearmonger by any means. Most cosmetics are safe, right? If we think of our bigger brands, our more trusted brands, things like that. But everyone is looking for cheap and good, right? And we know that things that are cheap usually aren't good and vice versa and all that fun stuff. So there are these... What are they? They're almost like flea markets for makeup. Or they bring in all these off-label, non-label, random cosmetics. A lot of times you'll find random things in beauty supply stores, flea markets, things like that. Or just like in that TV show, they bring things from across the seas of that... Across the seas, right? That have the same labels as top brands and things like that but they're counterfeit. Now, that's where the problem lies. It's not buying things from a trusted brand online directly from a true store. Just like there is with counterfeit skin care products and things like that too. 

 

0:19:11.0 S1: We have to be aware of where we're sourcing these things. And not all things that are cheap with beautiful colors that we're flooded with on social media, that people can buy these pallets on Amazon. And they're just using willy-nilly, 'cause they're like, "Oh, I got 15 eyeshadow pallets for 30 bucks. This is amazing." You don't know what the quality of those products are or their ingredients. Because the FDA approves cosmetics, but they're not FDA regulated. The only things that are actually regulated are color additives, what you can and can't put in products, and then it has to be labeled correctly. So this is where the lead issue starts to come in, and that's why these stores, particularly, I think it was like Claire's and, I don't know, these little kit shops with all the jewelery and stuff like that. They keep finding lead in the cheap make-up that they're sourcing and from who knows where. 

 

0:20:02.5 S2: Oh, or the make-up kit that I got in aesthetics school. 

 

0:20:06.5 S1: Oh my goodness. 

 

0:20:07.1 S2: I'm like, "Oh, I'm pretty sure I know what boat this came off of." 

 

0:20:11.4 S1: Yeah. 

 

0:20:11.9 S2: Not quality. 

 

[laughter] 

 

0:20:13.1 S1: I'm so sorry. But yeah, just being aware to make sure that you're buying brand name quality stuff and not trying to find a cheap hookup for something that has a nice label that looks like it's expensive when it's not. 

 

0:20:27.3 S2: Yeah, quality. Yeah, thank you for saying that because I was starting to get creeped out, and I was like, "Oh my gosh." But you're right. You put, "cheap" and "good" is not always good. [chuckle] And buying from trusted brands is important. I have my favorites. I have my favorite eyeliner, I have my favorite... For personal use. Because Kat's mentioned a few things in here. She's looking at... She's got a two-sided approach here. She's looking at personal use, daily use, and professional use. So there's different products for different intentions too. Not always do I have to be... What do they say? Beat? Or is that over? Do they still say beat?  

 

0:21:12.4 S1: I don't know. Is that a thing they are saying now?  

 

0:21:13.4 S2: I don't know. Not always do I have to look runway ready. [chuckle] Even though I try, I look more like Marilyn Manson, and let you know, sometimes by the end of the day, but I try. But, you're right, it's quality. Quality. And that's what you have to keep in mind. Don't buy your Kylie lip kit from DHgate or Alibaba 'cause... [chuckle] 

 

0:21:36.8 S1: Yeah, don't, don't. Just don't do it. 

 

0:21:39.0 S2: 'Cause I've seen them on there. 

 

0:21:40.7 S1: Oh, they are. Before I get myself in trouble. There's some brand name makeup lines that are out there now that basically built their whole company off the backs of cheap makeup. 

 

0:21:56.5 S2: And now, is it still cheap?  

 

0:22:00.3 S1: Yeah, technically, it's still cheap, but they got better packaging and they have millions of followers online. But marketing can go a long way. 

 

0:22:08.8 S2: Hmm, curious. Can't wait to ask you privately... [laughter] Who this is. 

 

0:22:15.7 S1: Not trying to dig myself deeper, yeah. 

 

[laughter] 

 

0:22:19.4 S2: Okay. [laughter] What? Alright, crazy. Oh my gosh, you know so much. Now we gotta talk about Tea Time, or we can talk about brands, maybe. [chuckle] Next podcast. Let's continue on. Let's just do one more creepy ingredient. What's one more eww gross ingredient?  

 

0:22:37.9 S1: This is a good one, because this one is controversial in both sides. It has its benefits, and it has its downfalls for sure. But I am noticing an increasing amount of people who are having a sensitivity topically to propylene glycol. And we know it's in everything. It's absolutely in everything. It helps products feel better, go on smoother texture-wise. It's a known humectant, which is beautiful. But it's also... I've seen people just getting more dermatitis from it on a regular basis. And clients asking if I can avoid any products in general that have that ingredient on it just because they're gonna break out, and they don't want it to happen. 

 

0:23:20.7 S2: They have some kind of skin irritation. 

 

0:23:22.2 S1: Big time, big time. 

 

0:23:24.6 S2: That's interesting because... And when you look at propylene glycol, I just did a big article on this and also on fragrance but... When you look up on some of the scientific review journals, one of them, PubMed.gov, if you were to go to there and you type in "propylene glycol skin sensitivity", it'll pull up a list of either abstracts or complete articles on the subject. And also, off to the left-hand side, there's a graft of when... Or graph. [chuckle] There's a graph of when they were written and published. And it's interesting because a lot of these started being researched or published, I should say, in early 70s, then you see a lull where nobody talked about it, and then there's a huge spike recently. So I wonder what the correlation is. Is it a correlation with manufacturers using it? Using it differently? Using it in different quantities? Using it in combination with something? That's very interesting. And is it also a user awareness? Were they aware of the terms that they're asking for it more? Or asking... 

 

0:24:30.9 S1: Who knows? Formulation, like I said, I'm not a cosmetic chemist, it's something that I absolutely want to get into at some point. We always wanna expand our knowledge, but this ingredient in general... And if you go to the American Contact Dermatitis Society, so ACDS, they named it the 2018 Allergen of the Year. And they noticed that a lot of people are getting just like random little rashes and patches and things like that. But it's really hard to track down, it's really hard to pinpoint that someone has an allergy directly to that, because it's in everything. So it's hard to really narrow it down. Is this the common denominator, and if it is a certain percentage that makes people flare up or not. So you'll hear different arguments on both sides, from derms, from esthes, from across the board. "No, it's fine, it's amazing, it's odorless, it's a humectant, it does all these things." And then other people are like, "No, no, I'm breaking out from it, and it's a flare-up and it's an irritation." So who knows? I can't wait to see where this goes in terms of formulations and finding out. But if I can, I try to avoid the ingredient. 

 

0:25:42.0 S2: Yeah, that was a lot. Eww, gross. 

 

0:25:46.2 S1: I know. 

 

0:25:46.9 S2: Eww, gross. Let's change... Let's end on a little bit of sunshine. 

 

0:25:51.5 S1: Sure. 

 

0:25:53.0 S2: What are your couple ingredients that you like in makeup?  

 

0:25:56.5 S1: Oh, I'm gonna get so much flak for this, but it's okay. Ready? I'm gonna give you two. 

 

0:26:01.7 S2: Should I sit back down?  

 

0:26:03.2 S1: Yes. 

 

[laughter] 

 

0:26:03.5 S1: Parabens. 

 

0:26:08.2 S2: What?  

 

0:26:11.1 S1: I know, I know, I know, I know. Wait, we talked about shelf life of things. And yes, they are getting so much better in terms of the preservatives that people can use and so on and so forth, but... [laughter] the shelf life of cosmetics and things going bad has drastically declined because of not using parabens. It's just... And I just... I'm team... I don't think they're as terrible as they are especially in terms of being used in makeup. Makeup is the last thing that goes on the face, and makeup should be the thing that you're washing off immediately when you get home. So if people aren't using cake and cake and cake of makeup on a regular basis, they want that makeup to last long. And the more natural a makeup the less longetivity it's gonna have, the less shelf life it's gonna have, the less wearability it's gonna have. 

 

0:27:01.2 S2: Hmm, interesting... 

 

0:27:04.8 S1: I know, I know. It's one of those things, right? Either you love it, you hate it. I've gotten in conversations with my colleagues about it all the time too, and I'm like, "I don't really think they're that bad." And the last one across the board... [chuckle] I know I'm terrible, it's fine. Silicones, right? We talk about silicones on a regular basis. My favorite formulation of foundation is silicone-based, but not my favorite in skin care. I know they make things feel good. But if we're talking in terms of makeup formulations, if I want something to leave smooth, if I want something that is gonna kinda blur and hide texture, right, if I want something that is just gonna kinda look overall better in terms of texture, I'm gonna go for a silicone-based foundation over a water-based foundation or what have you. Because it's just gonna blur and hide things better than most other formulations. 

 

0:28:11.7 S2: Hmm. Like you said... Yeah, like you said, you're putting this over the skin care. 

 

0:28:18.5 S1: Exactly. It also helps to keep things in, right? So it's one of those things, it's interesting... The thing... The ingredients that I prefer in my makeup, or don't prefer in my make-up versus what I prefer in my skin care. And yes, I know what's going on top of skin, overall, but... 

 

0:28:39.4 S2: Well, there's some silicones that are natural. 

 

0:28:42.1 S1: Yeah. 

 

0:28:42.4 S2: People seem to think that somehow all silicones are synthetic, petroleum-based or some kind of noxious chemical. But there are... And not all synthetic things are totally harmful. 

 

0:28:57.6 S1: Whoa. 

 

0:28:58.0 S2: That's very provocative of you to say... I'm gonna do some more research on silicones. 

 

0:29:04.2 S1: Let me do your makeup with water-based versus silicon-based and let's see what you prefer. 

 

0:29:11.1 S2: Okay, it's a date. [laughter] Kat, oh my gosh, it's been so amazing to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us, and we're gonna have to have you back for another episode if you'll come back. 

 

0:29:23.4 S1: I will always be back. This is the most fun. I have a blast with you always. 

 

0:29:27.8 S2: Oh, I love it. I have a blast with you too. Can't wait to have you back. And now we wanna hear from you, listener. That's you with your earbuds in or jamming in your car in traffic. We wanna know what tops your ew-gross-not-on-my-face list. What ingredients will never be okay with you, or what are your favorites? We want to hear all about it. Please reach out via a social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or by emailing getconnected@ascpskincare, and let us know your thoughts. Thank you for listening to ASCP Esty Talk. For more information on this episode, or for ways to connect with Kat, myself, or to learn more about ASCP, check out the show notes and stay tuned for the next episode of ASCP Esty Talk. 

 

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0:30:16.0 S3: Thanks for joining us today. If you like what you hear and you want more, subscribe. If you wanna belong to the only all-inclusive association for estheticians that includes professional liability insurance, education, industry insights and an opportunity to spotlight your sick skills, join at ASCPskincare.com, only 259 per year, for all this goodness. ASCP knows it's all about you.