Ep 301 – We Listen, We Don’t Judge

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0:01:00.0 Ella Cressman: Hello and welcome to ASCP Esty Talk. I'm Ella Cressman, licensed esthetician, certified organic skincare formulator and content contributor for Associated Skincare Professionals.

0:01:10.8 Maggie Staszcuk: I am Maggie Staszcuk, licensed esthetician and ASCP's program director.

0:01:15.5 EC: Hey Maggie, I do have a shout out. I know you now, but the Skin Deep, the newest issue, has just dropped and it is gorgeous. It's so pretty and it's a great topic. It's about customization and I just wanted... So anyways, I read Jen the editor's note in there. If you have the magazine flip over, check it out. But she said something that kind of stuck with me. So tell me your thoughts on this. At the end she goes into Sam paraphrasing. So she goes in to say here at ASCP it's all about you. And she's basically saying that in our industry that it's all about a client. And I got to thinking that not always or lately have we had that mentality. Do you know what I'm saying?

0:02:02.6 MS: I do know what you're saying. I think that it's not just the industry. I think that it's just our world in general. We've kind of been grouchy.

0:02:11.2 EC: Grouchy and self centered. And I don't mean that in the worst way. But if we look at just our profession because there's a lot of demands, we've talked about it so many different things and we even focus on some of those here in this podcast, on how to build your business and how to set boundaries with your clients and how to build your social media and all of those things are very centered on. So imagine being a practitioner with these, shall we say, responsibilities or things to consider. So when you're getting someone in your treatment room, you're wanting to take pictures to post on social media because that equals credibility or they're showing up late or they're no showing. And you're wanting to set these boundaries.

0:02:49.1 EC: I see so much on social media about, I'm not going to put up with that and you shouldn't put up with that. And that's true. There is some validity to that. But are we losing sight of grace for our clients? Are we losing sight of that? This client is here to see us, not necessarily to be exposed on our social media. And I don't mean to flame anybody up here. I was just like thinking about it, this, if that's the case, where are we focusing just on them? Where are we focusing on their condition, their desires, their likes? Where are we focusing on why they are coming to us? You know what I'm saying?

0:03:22.4 MS: I do, yeah. You know this mentality that the customer is always right, we've lost sight of that a little bit, I think.

0:03:28.9 EC: Yeah, we lose sight that the customer isn't not necessarily always right, but the customer is human, I guess. But just something to think about. I just think this whole issue is gorgeous. It's really pretty and something amazing to put in your treatment room or just to check out on your downtime. But I just thought I would mention it. Anyway, speaking of social media, I know you haven't heard of it, so I'm gonna catch you up real quick. This is the part of our podcast where we bring Maggie up to date on social media. So there's something going around. It's been a couple months, but it's so funny. I love it. It's called we listen and we don't judge. I think it started as a TikTok trend. Have you heard any of this?

0:04:11.8 MS: I have heard this, yeah.

0:04:12.9 EC: Okay, good. So it's this chant and it's used to signal a judgment free zone where people can share personal information or confessions or whatever, and they can do so without judgment. But I think judgment is human nature. So I Googled it.

0:04:31.3 MS: What did Google tell you?

0:04:32.8 EC: I love Google now because they have that AI overview so I don't have to scroll as much or as deep. So the AI overview from Search Lab said, people judge others often as a natural cognitive process to quickly assess situations. That makes sense.

0:04:48.5 MS: Yeah.

0:04:49.2 EC: To establish social hierarchies and to reinforce their own beliefs and values, often stemming from a need to feel safe or superior. I've seen both of those. And can be influenced by personal experiences, social norms and psychological biases, basically acting as a shortcut to understand complex social environments. And I don't think there is a much more complex social environment than that of the skincare industry's social media. What do you think?

0:05:18.2 MS: Ah, drop the mic, Ella. Yeah.

0:05:21.8 EC: And it was so cool. I think it was educated therapists. It's a group on... Or maybe it was esthetician support group, one of the Facebook groups. And this came up and I thought, oh, this is so funny. I just loved reading all of them. So I do want to share a couple, if that's okay. One was Madison Morgan. She's a top contributor, and this is her, "We listen, we don't judge". Okay, so I'm going to read this and then we're going to do our chant.

0:05:48.2 MS: Yeah.

0:05:49.0 EC: She says, I'm a wax specialist, but I walk around like Chewbacca 90% of the time because I couldn't be bothered to remove my own hair.

0:05:57.1 MS: We listen, we don't judge.

0:06:00.5 EC: Perfect. Okay, now we have Lainey Singleton, and I hope I pronounced your name right, Lainey. This is what she says. I talk to my clients about their diet, then go get a Taco Bell quesadilla or two the same day.

0:06:12.1 MS: We listen, we don't judge.

0:06:15.1 EC: Get it girl. And now Liz Ramirez. She says, I tell my clients how important it is to double cleanse at nighttime, but I still have a habit of sleeping with my makeup on at once a week. Today is that day.

0:06:28.8 MS: We listen and we don't judge.

0:06:31.6 EC: So, Maggie, why don't we play? Want to?

0:06:33.8 MS: Yeah.

0:06:34.3 EC: Okay, I'll go first.

0:06:36.2 MS: Okay.

0:06:37.8 EC: Here's mine. I don't like to give myself deep chemical peels. I don't like it. I don't like any part of it. I don't like the way my skin feels afterwards. I don't like the way my skin looks afterwards. So I stick to no downtime treatment.

0:06:50.9 MS: Okay. We listen and we don't judge.

0:06:54.5 EC: Do you think I'm alone in that?

0:06:56.1 MS: No, no, no, no. I really don't. I think there's a lot of people that stick to just the basics. And there's exfoliation that works for some and not for all.

0:07:05.8 EC: Well, count me in. It's so funny. But, you know, I love peeling people, but hopefully I'm not one of those that's putting my opinions onto my clients because I tend to stick into that range because I see them so much that I save those deep peels for maybe once a year or something.

0:07:21.9 MS: Yeah.

0:07:22.4 EC: Interesting.

0:07:22.9 MS: Yeah. Okay. God, I don't want to say mine.

0:07:26.0 EC: You have to. We're not judging you. Nobody's judging you.

0:07:29.8 MS: Well, you say that, but listen...

0:07:31.8 EC: All to your face.

0:07:32.6 MS: Yeah.

0:07:34.3 EC: I'll save it for later.

0:07:35.4 MS: All right, here I go. Listen, people. I hate going and getting facials.

0:07:41.9 EC: We listen and we don't judge. Why?

0:07:46.1 MS: As a professional esthetician, I have a really hard time going to another professional... Oh, my God. I just had an epiphany. I'm judging. That's why I don't like getting a facial. I can't sit there and get a facial by another professional because I'm lying there and judging.

0:08:04.8 EC: Okay, so you're not listening and judging. You're counting. You're laying and judging.

0:08:08.4 MS: I'm laying and judging.

0:08:08.9 EC: You're laying and judgment.

0:08:10.4 MS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:08:12.8 EC: Oh, that's so true. I'm the opposite. Because when I go get a facial, first of all, I don't know why I don't find time for that. But when I do, I don't tell them what I... Like that's my profession.

0:08:24.5 MS: I don't either.

0:08:25.1 EC: Because I feel that they are nervous.

0:08:28.9 MS: Because they're gonna judge you?

0:08:30.9 EC: Yeah. And let me tell you, my least favorite client is an esthetician. One of them I had... Oh, my gosh, Maggie. I had this esthetician, mind you, I'm like, get her done scraping and burning and, like, I'm a, I don't want to stay functional esthetician, but I'm corrective. And she came in, another esthetician. She's like, well, where's my wrap? I was like, oh, that's the face she want. No problem. Well, yeah, because you're going to massage this and that and the other. I was like, oh, if that's what you want. She said, well, you don't do that as if, what about the hands and the arms? I'm like, listen, this is not that kind of place. But do you want that? I can, I'm fully able to, but we did a trade, and I never, like, took her up on her end because she was judging. She was laying in judgment for me.

0:09:11.4 MS: Yeah, well, we listen and we don't judge.

0:09:14.3 EC: Fair enough. Okay. I've got one that I don't know. This is gonna be a little controversial.

0:09:20.9 MS: Okay.

0:09:21.6 EC: I'm no longer mad at benzoyl peroxide.

0:09:24.4 MS: Oh, tell me why.

0:09:26.4 EC: Because I think it's... If you use it right. Listen, I think it's gotten a bad rap, and we've had these couple of years or a few years of, like, oh, it's so bad for the skin, or it's bad for this or it's bad for that. But I've seen it. I have changed my mind.

0:09:42.3 MS: Okay. You said if you use it right. What's right?

0:09:46.0 EC: In a cycle, a short cycle, or for spot treating.

0:09:50.4 MS: Yeah. Okay.

0:09:51.4 EC: Because I have seen it literally change lives. There are certain circumstances. It's not for a blackhead.

0:09:57.4 MS: No.

0:09:57.8 EC: But for those painful cystic ones that come up and want to ruin a week or a month and then cascade into other issues. Because you're trying to treat it, and you're drying out the skin around it and all these problems. If you use it in a routine that is balanced, it's very effective.

0:10:17.0 MS: Yeah.

0:10:17.6 EC: For a short little time.

0:10:19.3 MS: All right.

0:10:19.8 EC: Ready?

0:10:20.3 MS: Yeah.

0:10:20.8 EC: We listen. We don't judge.

0:10:24.0 MS: All right. I've got a whopper, and it kind of goes with the benzoyl peroxide. And I want you to tell me if I have a benzoyl peroxide problem.

0:10:32.8 EC: Okay.

0:10:33.5 MS: Now, Laney Singleton and Liz Ramirez. I get you. I will have those nights where I do not wash my face, man. Sometimes I don't even shower, and I'm hitting up Del Taco. And then the next day, I am waking up with, like, a massive breakout in the middle of my forehead. And I use the heck out of that benzoyl peroxide, but I feel like it's not working. And so then day after day, I am packing that benzoyl peroxide on. So am I not doing it right?

0:11:09.1 EC: We listen. We don't judge. The whole time you're saying all that, I'm like, oh, well, you should do this, and you should do this.

0:11:15.8 MS: That's funny. That's fine.

0:11:16.4 EC: That was a hard one.

0:11:18.2 MS: Ella, you judge me and teach me. What am I doing wrong? Beside the fact that I'm dirty girl. What am I doing wrong?

0:11:25.3 EC: That's reacting probably.

0:11:27.0 MS: Okay.

0:11:27.8 EC: Do you sleep with your hand on your forehead?

0:11:29.5 MS: I'm sure I do.

0:11:30.5 EC: Okay, so again, a benzoyl peroxide might be for more those hormonal ones, those big ones, because are they cysts on your forehead?

0:11:37.3 MS: Oh, yeah.

0:11:37.8 EC: Oh, they're cysts?

0:11:38.8 MS: Oh, yeah.

0:11:39.5 EC: Okay, well, maybe you should start with a salicylic or something instead or a mandelic acid.

0:11:44.6 MS: Yep.

0:11:45.3 EC: Because here's the thing, we got to roll with it and make sure it's appropriate for you and your body. So let's start with mandelic and go from there. I hear that, and I think job security for me. So when my clients come in, I don't go, you need to do this. And, you know, I'm like, this is probably why, but do you? This one is going to be kind of polarizing.

0:12:04.3 MS: Okay.

0:12:05.3 EC: I can't stand the term acne safe. I think it's lazy. I think it's misleading.

0:12:11.3 MS: We listen and we don't judge.

0:12:14.3 EC: Listen. I know that is something that is widely used in our industry is acne safe supplements, products that you ingest, products that you apply topically. But I think it's just not the thing. There's not just one single ingredient that triggers acne. Acne requires an investigation. So I understand wanting to use this list, but relying solely on a list of ingredients or a list of things like medications or understanding possible triggers, completely avoiding it. You may be missing something. Plus, formulations are so much more sophisticated. So if you look at the list of acne unsafe or whatever, ingredients that are not acne safe, it's not always true. It's just not. So I hate that, it's that bad. I know people are going to say, oh.

0:13:06.5 MS: I don't think that's bad. I think there are so many terms, acne safe, comatogenic, acnegenic. And I think you get to a point where it's really just, is this marketing? As an esthetician, you need to know your ingredients and you need to know your client, to your point.

0:13:25.6 EC: And the formulations that you're using.

0:13:27.3 MS: Yeah.

0:13:28.0 EC: And ask. Ask them. So, yeah, I hate that. And I see all the time on social media, is this acne safe with like a list of ingredients and other people chiming in is like, no, it's not. Because at the very last ingredient is a little bit of this. And that's shown not to invalidate their information because they're not incorrect. It's just that they're not always correct. Is that fair?

0:13:49.3 MS: Yeah, that's fair.

0:13:50.1 EC: Okay, good.

0:13:50.9 MS: Yeah.

0:13:51.3 EC: Do you have another one?

0:13:52.4 MS: I do have another one. And since the dawn of time, since I became an esthetician, I have never liked eye cream. I would not retail it to my clients. I would not apply it to myself in protocols and facial protocols. I would use it because that was the protocol. But I never... Don't get me wrong, I see the value, I see the change, but I just can't get behind it.

0:14:14.9 EC: Well, wait five years. That's one thing you could do. You could put it by your nightstand, right next to your Del Taco wrapper. Oh, wait, that's in the morning.

0:14:27.9 MS: Yeah.

0:14:28.8 EC: Listen. Okay, wait, hold on.

0:14:30.5 MS: We listen and we don't judge.

0:14:33.1 EC: If you were my client, what I would say is that's cool, then don't. It's job security for me. We'll do some around the eye tightening things. What? Be one way. The other way, in light of your other story you told or your other situation, you said, I would make it easy for you. If you're like, do you have any kind of like makeup wipes or face wipes or even like cleansing pads or something? Put them by your bedside. If you're the one that doesn't like to wash your face at night. Because let's be honest, we're tired. Put it next to your bed. Put your eye cream next to your toothbrush. Make it easy for yourself. Or don't use it. If you're not going to use it, give it to me.

0:15:11.0 MS: You sound like such a good esthetician. That is like the perfect canned response. I love a good wet wipe. It's so easy.

0:15:20.6 EC: It is. Uh-huh. Cool. Now listeners, we really want to hear from you. What are some things that you do that you might be afraid of judgment? You can tell us. We won't judge. Reach out via Instagram, Facebook or send us an email @getconnected@ascpskincare.com. We want to know all the details. In the meantime, thank you for listening to ASCP Esty Talk. For more information on this episode, or for ways to connect with Maggie or myself, or to learn more about ASTP, check out the show notes and stay tuned for the next episode of ASCP Esty Talk.