Ep 314 – It’s Not Aging, It’s (Peri)Menopause!

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0:00:54.0 Ella Cressman: Hello and welcome to ASCP Esty Talk. I'm Ella Cressman, licensed esthetician, certified organic skincare formulator and Content contributor for Associated Skincare Professionals.

0:01:04.4 Maggie Stasik: I am Maggie Stasik, licensed esthetician and ASCP's program director.

0:01:09.1 EC: Maggie, I have to tell you, I know it's been a while, but I had so much fun at the Denver meetup.

0:01:13.9 MS: I'm so glad, Ella.

0:01:15.4 EC: Yeah, I loved it. I think that it was amazing. Just getting together was key, but the brands that were there were also really neat and just really communing with fellow estheticians and seeing them in person. There's one in particular, so she's today's shout out. We have a shout out, and I'm probably butchering your last name, Bri Nejad, but that's how I've said it in my head for years and years because we've been connected via Facebook and I met her in person. We had the best conversation for a lot of reasons, but it was really nice to meet her in person. So I wanna shout her out. So today we're going to be talking about, I'm super surprised that today's topic is as trendy as it is and can I explain why?

0:02:01.3 MS: Yeah, tell me.

0:02:01.9 EC: I thought I was alone. I thought I was alone in this exploratory mission to really understand menopausal skin. And I will admit that it's something born out of my own experience. There's a huge difference. And so when I say born out of my own experience, I'm not talking just about my stage in life, but also about witnessing some of the changes that have happened in my clients over the years. And you've heard me say quite a bit that the industry has conditioned us to these boxes of anti aging, hyperpigmentation, compromised skin and so on, even acne. But I feel like we're circles and we encompass more than one of those boxes. This is incredibly true when I think about menopausal skin, not just for myself, but for my clients. So I've been on a quest, really developing a training program for like 18 months now. And then I see it everywhere. You probably see it everywhere too, right?

0:02:58.1 MS: I do, yeah.

0:03:00.0 EC: I love that it's something we are talking about now because it's so different than just those boxes that we've had before. And the other thing that bothers me, I don't know, that doesn't bother me, that makes me happy, but one thing that bothers me is that when I was younger, my association with menopause was like hot flashes, night sweats, irritability. Right.

0:03:21.3 MS: A hundred percent.

0:03:22.3 EC: And I mean, even, I'll share a personal story. When I was in my 20s, my cousins, my aunts, my grandma, we thought it'd be fun. We all got together, we got limos, and we went out to a theater evening. And the theater was Menopause the Musical. So it was a sisterhood thing. And they talked about some of those key points or what have you. And I thought that was it. I thought I was gonna get to a certain age and then I was gonna be going through that for a little bit and then moving on. But one thing that I was not really prepared for was perimenopause and the difference in what happens. So I think it's important to understand that, because guess what? It's inevitable. It's inevitable. And it may start at different times, it may have different durations, but we're going to go through it. So I think before we get started, one thing we should talk about is the difference between aging skin and menopausal skin. What do you think the biggest differences would be?

0:04:20.0 MS: That's a really good question. And I think in some respects, aging skin and menopausal skin are synonymous. But to your point, it also depends on your age and where you are in your life and your external experiences and factors impacting your skin. But aging skin, it changes slowly over time due to collagen breakdown, reduced cell turnover, and again, those environmental factors like sun exposure and pollution.

0:04:51.7 EC: Yeah. Where menopause or perimenopause feels like it just comes, it comes on, you're walking along, everything's good, and then you trip and then you're in it. So for aging versus menopause, with aging, you're gonna see fine lines, loss of firmness and dullness, but it's more progressive and predictable.

0:05:11.3 MS: Gradual.

0:05:12.0 EC: Yeah.

0:05:12.6 MS: Menopause is like your skin going through this fast track transformation due to a drop in estrogen.

0:05:20.3 EC: Yes. And perimenopause, it drops, comes back up. Drops, comes back up. And so this is why you have erratic skin. A lot of different things, but if we're talking just particularly about the skin, this is why there's these changes. Because estrogen plays a huge role in keeping the skin hydrated, plump and flexible or elastic. So on those times during perimenopause when it decreases, the changes feel sudden and dramatic. So you wake up in the morning, let's say, with dryness and even newfound sensitivity. And this is one of the first indications that I saw is I thought I looked great. Then all of a sudden I'm waking up and I'm like, what is that line? It's not this gradual, it's not graceful. I don't think so. And I think this campaign of aging gracefully is, oh, so cute. But in this phase, it feels like you just felt like Thelma and Louise off into this valley, what do you call it? Like a gorge.

0:06:21.9 EC: So other things you might experience are breakouts, redness, increased skin reaction was an interesting one because I saw that in my clients. So even if it was smooth sailing before, all of a sudden there was clients at a huge age range, like about a 20 year span, that we're all of a sudden sensitive or reactive. So that portion, we talk about menopause, we talk about purity, we talk about hormonal changes in the skin, especially related to acne. But let's talk about the difference between perimenopausal skin and menopausal skin. So both perimenopausal and menopausal skin go through changes, but the causes and the patterns are a lot different. So one good way to think of it is perimenopausal skin is unpredictable and fluctuates where menopausal skin is consistent and the changes are happening, but you don't have this whiplash back and forth. So let's talk about the hormonal influence.

0:07:24.4 EC: In perimenopause, estrogen spikes and crashes unpredictably. There's no rhyme, there's no reason. Some days your skin feels great and other days it's dry, oily, or breaking out. And then in menopause, the estrogen levels have consistently been low. So with that, it's important to understand because as practitioners, maybe you perform a treatment, a facial or otherwise, maybe a body treatment, maybe something else. And they're like, oh, I look really good. And they come back, they're like, yeah, the next week it was not, it was Just blah. It was back to normal. So think about those things, especially when you're recommending home care.

0:08:05.3 MS: Yeah. I think this is also why it's really important that every service, every time your client comes in, you are performing that skin analysis because the skin is fluctuating so much that the treatment you performed last time may not apply to this time.

0:08:19.5 EC: Yes. And so it changes. Like if you do series, if you do graduated series, even of peels, you have to keep that in the back of your mind. Like maybe you might have to adjust down or stay on that level this time. Great point, Maggie. So let's talk about hydration and oil levels. I feel like the skin's best at an equilibrium between these two water and oil. In perimenopausal skin, some days the skin is super oily, where other days it's super dry. And that's because sebum production fluctuates based on these estrogen shifts, which is hard when you're looking at products. And then in the menopausal skin, oil production is just like, that's me making a sound of it stopping. So that means your skin is persistently dry, that you have rough texture potentially, and then the skin kind of can feel tight. So what questions should you or an esthetician ask during a consultation regarding dryness and oiliness to gently understand better?

0:09:21.8 MS: I would be asking, the number one that comes to mind is asking your client and if they are experiencing oily shine during the day and at what point does that appear. And then also what products are they applying and when are they applying them? Because is that oily shine a result of menopause or perimenopause or is it a result of how they're caring for their skin?

0:09:46.5 EC: Ooh, lovely points to ponder. I love that. Yes, awesome. Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

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0:10:31.6 EC: Okay, here we go. Let's get back to the podcast. Now let's talk about collagen and elasticity. In perimenopause, collagen levels start decreasing, but the process is slower and more inconsistent. So some months, maybe your skin feels plump, and then other times it might look thinner. I experienced this especially, like in my forehead is a huge indication around my eyes. And then also down like in my jowl area, like, what is going on? But sometimes I'm like, dang, I look good. And other times I'm like, what happened? Where menopause collagen production drops drastically. And the statistic is about 30% in the first five years of menopause. So menopause is defined as once your menses have stopped for a period of 12 months. So with this 30% drop in the first five years, obviously that's when you're seeing a noticeable sagging, fine lines, loss of firmness that stays. So what are some treatments and products you might perform or recommend considering these two different phases?

0:11:38.7 MS: First is going to be your vitamin A products, your retinoids, your retinols. This is going to boost collagen in the skin. And then always vitamin C, which is going to support the use of your vitamin A and help with tone and brightness in the skin. And always, always, no matter if you are perimenopausal or menopausal, is your sunscreen, which is going to prevent those UVA and UVB rays from further breaking down collagen in the skin.

0:12:04.1 EC: I think that's fantastic. How about for treatments?

0:12:06.6 MS: Treatments, it depends because we were talking earlier. What is the condition of the skin in the moment when that client's on the bed with you? If they're overly sensitive in the moment, overly dry in the moment, maybe you're just going to support the barrier of the skin. But you could be considering things like a little mini peel series, something like lactic, for instance. But maybe they can handle a glycolic or maybe they could handle a mandelic or Jessner peel if they're more oily and acne prone.

0:12:37.0 EC: You know what I love too? Oily and acne prone in this stage, perimenopause or menopause is nano treatments. Nano infusion.

0:12:45.0 MS: Oh, love that.

0:12:45.7 EC: And then if they can handle it, collagen induction therapy or microneedling. Because this is a way where you're instigating the function, if you will, of the collagen and elastin into reminding it, hey, let's work together. And I imagine it's probably like a marathon at the end. People are cheering you on and you're like, okay, I can do it these last hundred feet. But let's talk about pigmentation in spots, dark spots. So in perimenopause, these hormonal fluctuations can trigger certain pigment disorders like melasma and even the sun sensitivity. Not to mention imagine you're emotional and your emotions are changing. So your melanocytes are, as they say, sitting on ready. They're ready to go at any slight instigation. And this analogy would be like me having breakfast with my husband where I'm like, why, what did you mean by that? Or why are you chewing that way? Or it's like, oh, is like I trigger happy. I get really irritated sometimes. That's the way I like to think of this versus menopause, where the hyperpigmentation opportunity is like it's there and it becomes permanent. And so you're getting the age spots, the sun damage is becoming more visible.

0:14:01.3 EC: And that's because there's slowed cell turnover and just kind of a slowing down of everything. So what are we going to do to do that? So what I want to understand is every single one of your clients on something brightening at this point? When do you start putting everyone on brightening agents?

0:14:20.4 MS: I don't know that I would per se. It's going back to the ingredients recommended earlier. Your retinols, your vitamin C and your SPF. That's a great starting point. And then it's a case by case basis. Maybe somebody needs a hydroquinone. Maybe somebody needs a lactic. And not everyone will need a brightening product at this point in the game.

0:14:45.1 EC: You know what I love? Tranexamic. I love tranexamic for a couple of reasons. At this one, I would put everybody on something like that because, I think this is personal, because I am so worried about it. My bounce back from even little things. Like I find myself looking in the mirror, turning my head to see, is it way over here? Where does it stop? Like, I'm worried about it. So I'm definitely impressing my own personal experience onto everybody. But luckily I'm using multifunctional products. But tranexamic for that reason, because like you said, hydroquinone, you have to be so careful who you put on hydroquinone. And then it's so full of controversy. How about how skin, with that, how skin reacts to products and hydroquinone would be one of them that can elicit sensitivity. But in perimenopause, some products can like all of a sudden stop working or the skin may overreact to ingredients because of hormonal sensitivity. I had this happen last summer. I had a mandelic acid peel and it was a lipid peel. And I had rebound after rebound after rebound of itchiness and redness for about a six week period. I don't blame the peel at all.

0:16:00.1 EC: It was me, but it normally is something I could tolerate. It was very, very bizarre to me. So different than clients I've seen who are in menopause where they're just sensitive. I was like randomly sensitive. So how would you adjust your approach from aging perspective to perimenopause mindset for skin products?

0:16:24.1 MS: This is a hard one to answer because one, everyone is going to be different, and understanding that your hormones are constantly fluctuating and as a result the state of your skin is constantly going to be in an influx, it's hard to say that here is your aging approach for this person who is perimenopausal and menopausal. There's not a black and white answer or a protocol that fits this individual. So you have to take it as case by case, do your skin analysis and say, what is the state of the skin in the moment right now?

0:16:56.4 EC: Yeah, customization. Oh, I love it. So the bottom line is, what's the key difference in the skin? On that note, in your clients, is it presenting more perimenopausal or menopausal? Is it chaotic? Are there hormonal ups and downs in other areas? Perhaps those are great questions to ask in your consultation. Is it menopausal skin? Is it dry, thinner, collagen deficient? So how to handle each stage. For perimenopausal skin, use balancing skin care, lightweight hydration for those oil fluctuations, gentle exfoliation to avoid the sensitizing. Treat breakouts carefully. Don't over dry the skin and always wear sun protection to prevent hormonal or hyperpigmentation at all. For menopause skin, focus on deep hydration and barrier repair. Things like hyaluronic acid, ceramides, omega fatty acids, encourage collagen production with retinol peptides and vitamin C, just like Maggie said. Be gentle with exfoliation because thin skin can get irritated easily. But both stages really need adaptable skincare or adjustable or customizable skincare. So come in with an open mind. The goal is always healthy, glowing skin, no matter what estrogen is up to. Now listeners, we really want to hear from you. What are you seeing in your peri and menopausal clients? Reach out via Instagram, Facebook or send us an email at getconnected@ascpskincare.com.

0:18:23.6 EC: We want to know all the details. In the meantime, thank you for listening to ASCP Esty Talk. For more information on this episode, or for ways to connect with Maggie or myself, or to learn more about ASCP, check out the show notes and stay tuned for the next episode of ASCP Esty Talk.

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